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theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampire

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mornendindae	theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampire	Lead	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/05/02 08:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	ive just figured it out. this may have been discussed on this board before, but tell me if im on the right track. okay. vampires are supposed to naturally evolve to a state where they look like janos......winged blue beings, with clawhands and glowing eyes. also, vampires are intricantly linked to the pillars, which are he life blood of nosgoth. okay, the last powerful vampires, kains lietenants, evolved but not into winged beings. because of the pillars being broken and nosgoth decaying they just devovled into decrepit unnatural states. kain knew this would happen. however, raziel for some reason was evolving naturally w/o the pillars. we all know the next part of this story. but kain, being much older than raziel doesnt evolve wings. we know for a fact that he knew that vamps evovle into janos-like winged creatures. and it apparently angered him at least a bit when raz began to show signs of evolution before him. okay, now besides the obvious question as to why did raz change in the first place, why didnt kain? i believe its because kain, when he was human, was a guardian of the pillars, and the pillars intricate connection with vampires put his evolution on a different path. perhaps, kain is evolving even slower to something else. something grander. its been hypothosized that kain will eventually become something like the trapped beast that was being drained in B02. could it be that kain is to become something as of yet unseen?
Sharkinaknapsack	Re: theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampi	#1	[-]
Posts: 165 (09/05/02 10:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What about the other five brothers of Raziel - all of them evolved - but none of them grew wings.
Xx Reaver xX	Re: theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampi	#2	[-]
Posts: 122 (09/06/02 04:52 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I doubt Kain will ever become like that beast in BO2, because that was Janos in an unevolved state, when he was being drained of his blood. Probably the reason all this is happening is because Kain wasn't created a vampire the usual way. Kain was created a vampire by another force, that may have haulted his evolution. As for the other brothers, maybe they evolved that way because of Raziel's death. Maybe their bodies and their souls reacted to the death of one of their brethren, and forced then into another evolution.
smackbabe	Re: theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampi	#3	[-]
Posts: 2083 (09/06/02 12:39 PM) A S K E W Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hmm... interesting... I always believed that Raziel's bretheren were evolving into the Hylden-beasts you see in SR2 and BO2. I mean, doesn't Zephon's body look like the spider-thingies? and his head has those crests kinda like the Hylden... Anybody else ever think that? SmackBabe Devious Dreamer
Ghost Eater	Re: theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampi	#4	[-]
Posts: 945 (09/06/02 03:22 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The problem is, you cant really comapare Kain too much, when you do, you run into problems. Thats because Kain is very much an individual, in several ways. He's the balance guardian (yes, he is) which means most of the rules that apply to the other guardians dont apply to him. He is a vampire created thru necromancy, rather than by other vampires, Raziel said it himself, Kain's a wildcard. He doesnt need to evolve into some misshapen monster, Hes obviously very powerful and intelligent, he's become like a force.
mornendindae	Re: theory - kain doesnt evolve because hes not a true vampi	#5	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/07/02 05:23 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	the other brothers of raz did in fact evolve. but downwards rather than upwards, as was mentioned in SR1. because of the decayed state of nosgoth because of te broken pillars, the vampires, who are connected to the well being of nosgoth, devolved into unnatural states. rather han changing into what they were suppose to, they changed into whatever they were nearest to (water creatures, spiders, or just flabber in melchiahs case). that fact that kain is most likely still the balance guardian(putting aside the highly accepted theory that raz is the new guardian) is what brought me to this alterred evolution theory. even if kain isnt the balance guardian anymore and raz is, during the time kain was his growth was obviously inflicted by something. either way there must be some reason why hes not changing. this leads to the same question of another character. vorador. why didnt he change? he was ancient even when the pillars were still healthy. yet he just turned green and sprouted no wings.
SATAN	...	#6	[-]
Posts: 633 (09/08/02 03:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Where do you get the idea that all vamps naturally evolve towards resembling Janos? Take a look at Vorador. He's green. Janos is blue. He has huge f*cking ears. Janos doesn't. He has a big, wide nose. Janos doesn't. He has spikes on his jaw. Janos doesn't. He's bald. Janos isn't. And he's severely lacking in the most defining characteristic - WINGS! Not to mention that funny Romanian accent.
mornendindae	Re: ...	#7	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/08/02 11:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i didnt say they evolve into clones. but seeing that ancient vamps all had wings, claws and blue or grey or some other colored bodies, and from what was said on sr2 about all vamps evolving, it seems obvious conjecture that they all evovle to something seeming like their former selves.
kain the blood god	Re: ...	#8	[-]
Posts: 104 (09/09/02 12:52 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well lets be honest not every vampire evolves into an ancient,,, ancients were born but suddently they dont any more then they starting to make vampires by grabbing souls and I dont know. Janos is the last of the ancient,,, not all vampires are sopposed to look like that and Raziel would never ever look like Janos he just got wings plain and simple.
smackbabe	Re: ...	#9	[-]
Posts: 2083 (09/09/02 11:18 AM) A S K E W Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If only the legacy was plain and simple :b SmackBabe Devious Dreamer
kain the blood god	Re: ...	#10	[-]
Posts: 104 (09/09/02 11:56 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree but,,,,, if it would then LOK would be like any other games, right.
SATAN	...	#11	[-]
Posts: 633 (09/09/02 04:39 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Even so. Vorador looks nothing like an Ancient, and he's a 'true' Vampire who's very evolved. Every Ancient we see on the murals is blue. He's not. Every Ancient has normal-sized but pointy ears. Vorador's ears are not only very large, they're also lacking in any cartiliginouse structure whatsoever in BO and SR2. Janos' ears had cartiliginous structures and I'd think it's safe to assume that if he did, all Ancients did. We see no ancients on the murals with spikey jaws or almost any of Vorador's other distinguishing features. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but somehow I really doubt that Vampires are all supposed to eventually turn into replicas of the Ancient Vampires. The only resemblance they have is that significantly evolved Vampires are taller with 3 fingers, 2 toes, and it looks like they all have yellow eyes with the exception of the real weak de-evolved Vampires. Raz may have been evolving towards an Ancient, but so far it looks like he's the only Vampire who has ever evolved along that sort of path.
Bloodthirsty	Yupperz.	#12	[-]
Posts: 66 (09/09/02 05:00 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	And Kain did evolve. From a pale hottie, to a green... thing... but with a cool crown! ^____^;;; We all love him, even if he is... 'special' and different from all the other vampires. And I agree, I doubt all vampires evolve into Janos type things. He was one of the winged beings who were cursed by the hylden, was he not? And Vorador is about as vampiric as they get... Well... attitdue wise. Womanizing, blood drinking, and with cool ears! ^___^ plays with his ears for a while Erh... so yes, indeed, avery interesting theory, but I don't think it's quite right. But I like it anyway!
mornendindae	Re: Yupperz.	#13	[-]
Posts: 24 (09/09/02 08:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	but raz dwould have evolved into something like janos. hes blue. he had wings. he had claws. i know thats not much, but honestly, those are the only three superficial things about janos that make him different from other vamps. we still dont know the whole deal about vorador. we dont know if janos made him the same way kain was made (or why), or was he simply given the blood and charged as a squire to janos or something. also, theres still a possibility that vorador would have evolved wings. we dont know how long he was alive before he died. dont forget bo2 is millenia before sr1. for all we know it takes longer than that to evolve and raz was a special occurance or raz had simply lived longer than vorador when he grew wings. we do know that he lived way longer vorador if you count the millenia he spent in the abyss, which though t burned him apparently didnt stop his evolution totally (he became blue, grew claws and glowing eyes). both of those ideas still lead to the question of why hasnt kain evolved, or what is he evolving into. by sr2, hes the oldest non ancient vampire known, counting dead and alive ones. something was going on there. also, think about it. if vamps all evolve differently, then why didnt kain turn to some globby thing or somethinglike his lietenants did? he looked the same when he had raz tossed into the abyss he did when raz finally emerged out of it. there is also the notion that was brought up a long time ago that the reason why the lietenants evovled as they did was because kain, purposely or accidentally, botched their ressurection. possibly to see which one of them would emerge as raziel did. thats a little far in conjecture, but its something to consider.
Raziel23	`	#14	[-]
Posts: 477 (09/10/02 01:43 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Vorador was 7 thousand years old at the time of his death. The bretherin were devolving as a result of Nosgoth's decay. Kain is not devolving because his role as balance gaurdian protects him from Nosgoth's decay. ------------------end of thread----------------------
Zelen Gangrel	Re: `	#15	[-]
Posts: 3476 (09/10/02 09:05 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You wish. Human Vampires and Winged Vampires will evolve differently. Why? Simple because the Winged Vampires are a completely different race, a different species than humans. They may look similar in some respects, but that's like saying that humans also look like Hylden. They are humanoid in appearance. But back on topic. Janos' ancient race, Nosgoth's true vampire species evolved over millions of years into the form they came to be. Much like how humans (no religious debates, please) evolved over millions of years into homo sapiens. Because of the their genetic code, vampires became blue, winged, with cloven hands and feet. They did not evolve due to the blood curse, vampires evolved due to nature. Human Vampires however do no evolve in a natural way. Their evolution is more of an effect of the curse. As Umah said: "The curse develops differently in each of us". This being the case, each vampire evolves to a different form but continues to keep certan vampiric characteristics. Kain's brood is different. They are not created in the traditional way. Theirs is not a curse of the blood, but rather a curse of the soul. Since Kain's very soul was turned into vampire before he reached his body, Kain does not share the same blood curse. Kain took a piece of his own vampiric soul and placed it into each of his sons. This piece drew back in the soul of the fallen sarafan and caused this soul to be vampiric. So it is their souls that cause their bodies to evolve. This is why the evolutions appear more drastic. But another aspect of Kain's soul is also placed with in the brothers. Kain's soul is his token, his item from the Balance Pillar. It is also corrupt as Nosgoth is corrupt. So Raziel and his brethren were doomed to the corruption of Nosgoth, and to be themselves corrupted from their very creation. Now, at this point you think that both Kain and the Brethren are on the same path. Nope. Kain is the Balance Guardian. This makes Kain's hold on Nosgoth a bit stronger. Also Kain's physical form has evolved to the point of stopping (like Vorador). And most importantly of all, Kain was a vampire created through necromancy. He was not created in the same way his sons were. His sons souls were infected by a bit of Kain, Kain's soul was changed completely. The necromatic effect on Kain's soul may have kept him more in line with Vorador as a vampire, and less like his own. But the methods of that you'd have to ask Mortanius about. "The hurt inside is fading, this shit's gone way to far All this time Ive been waiting Now I cannot grieve anymore- For whats in side awaking. My god, Im not a whore. Youve taken everything, oh I cannot give anymore."
kain the blood god	Re: `	#16	[-]
Posts: 104 (09/10/02 10:18 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	lets go back to raz I always thought he was reserrected to an ancient, IF he was reserrected by the elder.
keepittrue	ok	#17	[-]
Posts: 333 (09/11/02 11:34 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Very good Zelen, I enjoyed reading that, but I find one flaw, Amy has already said Kain continues to evolve and I would assume Vorador still does as well.
Zelen Gangrel	Re: ok	#18	[-]
Posts: 3476 (09/11/02 12:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I believe his physical form has reached its peak but his Dark Gifts continue to evolve. "The hurt inside is fading, this shit's gone way to far All this time Ive been waiting Now I cannot grieve anymore- For whats in side awaking. My god, Im not a whore. Youve taken everything, oh I cannot give anymore."
Holy Necromancer	Re: ok	#19	[-]
Posts: 6 (09/11/02 02:44 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	raz was the same as his brethren , doomed to de-evolve, probably in to some ugly fly thing. but he didnt because he became the soul reaver. i dont think he was evolving to an ancient because he was a diffrent race (human vampire) and Created With the soul corruption thing.
SATAN	...	#20	[-]
Posts: 633 (09/11/02 08:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Perhaps not. The trend appears to be that the closer they are to being 'firstborn' the more powerful they are, which means they have less de-evolution in them and more evolution. Example: Mechiah was a big mass of rotting flesh. Turel was mostly humanoid except for the big ears. So Raz probably would have evolved to look sort of like Kain or Vorador or Turel, basically like any other highly evolved vampire, just with wings. We don't know how old Vorador was when he died. Kain is, what, 1500? And he looks to be at about Vorador's state of Evolution. I personally don't think Vampires ever just stop evolving. The reason Kain looks the same looks to me like it's just because he used the Chronoplast to jump ahead a couple centuries. He doesn't excactly strike me as a very patient guy, and from the looks of it he certainly didn't skimp on the use of Mobeious' favorite toy. I don't think the abyss furthered Raziel's evolution. He was pretty destroyed by the time he woke up. He's not even a Vampire anymore. He eats souls now, not blood. He doesn't exactly look all that healthy, and his wings haven't healed - which they may have had he retained his Vampirism. ("Flesh closes as soon as it is cleaved"). All highly evolved vamps we see have yellow eyes and look to be a good 1 1/2, 2 feet taller than your averge human. Raz is still human sized. His eyes glow white - other vampire's eyes re yellow, if not red - but red appears to accompany de-evolution, which Raziel is not.

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